23 Responses for "폭탄영어 #11 – Korean Visa Regulations"

1. Peter April 8th, 2008 at 10:53 am 1

   This is one subject I have to disagree (partly) with you on. Of course you can never assume that an entire group behaves a certain way. However, you must admit that the white, male, English-teaching population here are disproportionally a bunch of losers…to put it mildly. (full disclosure: I’m actually an adoptee and grew up in the USA and know tons of westerners here, many of which are friends. I hate to bash on my own people but it’s true). Obviously I have interacted with white guys my whole life, but I find myself often times disgusted by the ones here in Korea. Itaewon and unfortunately now, the western part of Hongdae have become so nasty. I’m sure you’ve noticed. It’s like you step into some time warp where the light never shines. They’re loud, disrespectful and just rude. I don’t know how many times in Tinpan or somewhere else some white guy just shouts at all the chinks to move out of the way. Of course, when he finds out I speak english, he cowers and doesn’t take responsibility.

   I’ve been here for a long time and I’ve seen how Korea changes people. It’s true, probably most who come here want a genuine cultural experience (in addition to the fact they are broke college students.) But very very soon, white guys see how good they have it here, the white privilege, the higher pay, attention from korean girls, etc. However, I think the biggest contributor to this arrogance is this feeling that they’re outsideers from the west and therefore better than most Koreans; that gives them license to do whatever they want. How many times have you guys listened to these white people who are here in Korea by choice, yet call Koreans stupid, naive, unfair, gay, racist, nationalistic, too hard-working, rude, dirty, sexist, etc. To be fair, I believe even this podcast series is guilty of that a little. They sit around and point and laugh at someone in the subway or on the street and say “how that would NEVER happen where I come from”.

   Now that I’ve said that. That IS really ONE segment of foreigners in Korea: white English teachers, mainly the men. There’s adoptees, gyopos, other Asians and westerners who have real jobs. However, white male english teachers are an unusual population in that proportionally they misbehave more than any other group. And THAT”S A FACT. Do ALL of them behave that way? Of course not, but a higher % of them do than any group here.

2. Michael April 8th, 2008 at 11:24 am 2

   We’ll just have to agree to disagree, then Peter.

   Sure, there are your fair share of people who have ego boosted by easier money, easier access to girls, people paying more attention to them than at home, the wages of male privilege, or are loud and obnoxious in bars on weekends.

   But then, I could have just described the average weekend in the Circle Club in Apkujeong full of kyopo men, too. The worst offender of that type having been the kid who was fired from his position in a major Wall Street firm after sending out an email full of sexist bragadocio on his company email, and is a legendary case in the history of westerners (specifically Americans) who come to Asia and act a fool.

   I just don’t think the dividing line is as clear as you think between those with “real jobs” and are purely culturally sensitive and thoughtful, and the white guys who rampage through town on the weekend. Or else have you hung out in Yeongdeungpo on a Saturday night, where I’ll tell you it’s nearly 100% Korean and wilder than Hongdae on any day of the week.

   And yes, this podcast can be guilty of American pride and the cultural assumptions that go with that; but I’ve seen that streak run through pretty much all Americans who come here, of Korean descent and otherwise, and have heard my fair share of kyopos also complaining about Koreans being too “stupid, naive, unfair, gay, racist, nationalistic, too hard-working, rude, dirty, sexist, etc.” In fact, sometimes I hear more of that on the kyopo end of things than from non-Korean people.

   I guess it depends on whom you hang out with. Personally, I’ve been in Tin Pan Alley once. Not my cup of tea. It sounds like you have been there often, given “you don’t know how many times” you’ve heard people call you “chink,” apparently. I’m really curious as to why you go there, then? From where I sit, I think a lot of it has to do with what crowd you run with, how old they are, and whatnot.

   If anything, my perspective is informed by comparing now to 1994, 1997, and 2002. I think there are more types of foreigners, doing more stuff, and much of it trying to be artistic and add to this society, than ever before. Even in Itaewon alone, you’ve got standup comedy being performed for the first time, foreigners owning high-class clubs and restaurants, an open and congenial atmosphere in the gay area known as “homo hill”, and in the bars I occasionally frequent (e.g. Gecko’s Terrace, The Bungalow) I see Koreans, Korean Americans, and other foreigners mixing like never before. I would definitely say that I’ve never seen any being called, of all things, “Chink” in a place that I’d say is more than 50% Korean at any time of the day. But then again, most of the people there are a bit older, more professional, or just don’t like the fratty atmosphere of some places. Again, I think it depends on where and with whom you hang out.

   Now, if you go to Gecko’s (the Terrace, not Garden) or The Loft, you’re going to get a totally different crowd, and depending on how you define it, more “losers” of every type. But I personally, don’t think those people and that atmosphere — kinda “foreigners-and-Korean-girls-only” — really define the norm anymore. I know of a pretty strong activist scene, an arty-farty scene, a techno-rave club scene — all kinds of sub-communities of foreigners who weren’t here 10-12 years ago.

   The way I see it, there’s more variety, more backgrounds, more personality types, and more reasons to be in Korea than ever before. And these silly visa regulations are just cutting out the pool of people at the top who have other choices and don’t affect the ones teaching illegally and at the bottom of the pool at all. They just shrink and tilt the pool more towards the people we all want to see less of, is my point.

   Thanks for the comment.

3. Jennifer April 8th, 2008 at 1:54 pm 3

   There are a couple of threads here I’d like to pick up on -
   First, while I have yet to take a survey of every white, male hagwon teacher in Korea, my personal experience is that there’s a wide variety out there. Some are loud-mouthed jerks and some are sensitive culture mavens, but either way I think it’s a mistake to assume that they’re all of the former variety, or, more importantly, to let the worst examples be held up as the face of foreigners in Korea. They’re not the majority, by a long shot, nor are they anything like the other foreigners I associate with or meet on a daily basis. That being the case, I’m really, really, REALLY incredibly tired of hearing them trotted out again and again as a reason for x restriction or y regulation.
   Second, if that’s the problem, then the regulations need to target those kinds of people and keep them out, WITHOUT unnecessarily restricting and harrassing other people. But, how do you screen out jerks? Should we all be submitting psychological profiles? Is there some matrix for measuring niceness? Should there be a politeness test? It doesn’t seem to me that the current regulations are going to do anything about your problem with cads in Hongdae.
   Ultimately, the Korean government should be asking themselves what kind of effect the new regulations are going to have, and is it the intended one? What are the unintentional results? The answer is already becoming clear: While the new regulations may be keeping out or discouraging some rude, criminal, unqualified, scruffy looking nerfhearders, it’s also causing a precipitous drop in the number of well-qualified, polite, culturally aware professionals who would otherwise like to work here, but don’t want to put up with the hassle, time, cost, and invasiveness of the curent requirments. Especially when there’s more money to be had either working in their home countries or going to other Asian countries. The end result is that Korea is already suffering from too few teachers to meet too great a demand, driving up costs, and increasing the amount of illegal work being done. That doesn’t seem to be a positive result, nor the intended one. In that light, it would seem like a good time to reconsider and re-draft some of those regulations.

4. Jennifer April 8th, 2008 at 1:58 pm 4

   And frankly, the fact that we’re wasting time rehashing the white male loud-mouth and party-hardy gyopo boy bit again is pretty tired. As a woman, I’m going to have to do something awful to gain media attention and hog our rightful place in the spotlight!
   Bad girls, it’s time to unite for horrenendous public acts! Onward, to Hongdae and INFAMY!

5. Heewon Kim April 8th, 2008 at 3:29 pm 5

   I personally thought that Jennifer and Michael did really good job on presenting opinions from their (or most of Westerners) point of view, though at times it was a little bit harsh criticism. I often heard a lot of complaints about this stupid regulations and crappy work environment by foreigners who wants to or have been here to teach English. I do hope that Korean government realize the real problem with the new regulations and change it in order to be better off in many ways.
   Thanks for great podcast.

6. Heewon Kim April 8th, 2008 at 3:31 pm 6

   btw, I’m not from U.S (as you can tell by my comment)
   It’s weird that U.S. flag shows up.. uhoh.

7. Jim April 8th, 2008 at 4:35 pm 7

   I sent my degree in a large green plastic folder. My diploma is larger then most. When I got it back it was creased down the middle, and the green plastic folder was gone.

   Peter, you should prove your statistics about the higher percentage of white males misbehaving. I agree I have seen many crazy people here teaching English, but also I have seen a higher number of middle aged Korean men doing things like: beating up their wives, using the sidewalk as a urinal, or displaying general sororety girl drunkenness before 7:00 P.M. So I think your point that Korea changes people is somewhat, apt in that some people just copy the locals.

8. Jim K. April 8th, 2008 at 5:53 pm 8

   I should say something about the background check. I went home for 8 months, and tried to get a job as a substitute teacher. In order to do that I had to get a criminal background check from the state of Michigan and the F.B.I. it took about 6 weeks. Your point that it would be difficult for people of many different state residencies sounds frustrating, however, in this vein I feel that Korea is doing something that is expected of Americans trying to get jobs as teachers in their own countries, therefore I somewhat suport that measure for the Visas.
   I completely agree with you guys about the diplomas. My diploma now has a large crease down the middle of it due to some government official or the idiot recruiter that I went through, I don’t know who did it but it was rather disheartening to see.
   Peter, I agree with you that Korea can change people, and I have witnessed a few people make complete fools of themselves due to alcoholic nights out that go sour. I stopped hanging around those people. I also agree with you that white men have been responsible for most of histories trajeties and the subjugation of people’s throughout the world. However, saying that there is a higher percentage white men causing trouble in Korea then anyone else is ignorent of what middle aged Korean men generally do. I live nearby the city hall in Jinju. The closest foriegners who live near me are a bunch of Russian factory or construction workers who live in a hotel. So we are a coelition of white men who generally keep to ourselves and go to work everyday. Last October I heard screaming in my apartment building, it sounded like someone was beating up their wife, the night after that the same happened. My land lord kicked them out. Usually once a month I can here some drunk Korean person yelling 18 18 18 in my street. If I go out past 12 I figure I have a 50% chance of seeing someone using the sidewalk as a urinal. As I said before I live nearby city hall, so I’m pretty sure many of these people are government officials, who get sororety girl drunk oftentimes before 7:00 at night, I just ignore them and I go about my business.
   Thank you all for making an interesting podcast.

9. Michael April 8th, 2008 at 6:30 pm 9

   Heewon – you’re not presently in the US? That’s weird, then.

10. Mark April 8th, 2008 at 7:06 pm 10

    This is all just a beginning. Just wait until unification and then see what happens.

11. chadic April 8th, 2008 at 7:33 pm 11

    좋은 자료 만들어 주셔서 감사합니다

12. Jennifer April 9th, 2008 at 12:10 pm 12

    I have to say, especially for people working with children, I have no objection to requiring some kind of criminal background check. I think it’s probably a good idea, and it’s perfectly legit to point out we require them at home for many jobs. The problem here is not the requirement itself, but the implementation – by ignoring or not investigating how checks are preformed in the home countries of the teachers they’re trying to recruit the government here has made a major mistake. A little consultation ahead of time or a listening to people like the American and Canadian embassy staff in the immediate aftermath probably could have found a solution that would have satisfied everybody. In particular, some problems could be solved by making the visa sponsor request the background check instead of making the applicant supply it. As Jim pointed out, getting a criminal background check can take quite some time, and the wait isn’t getting any shorter.
    Other than fixing (not eliminating) the criminal background check problem, I think the big changes need to be:
    elimination of the interview at the consulate – this is a big time and money waster for everyone. The applicant may be traveling hundreds of miles to get an interview with an already overworked consular official, who has no real interest or reason to evaluate the applicant (and for what purpose has never been clear – to see if they actually speak English? To see if they have good hygiene? To check and make sure they know all the words to “She’s Gone” before letting them work with teenage boys?)
    switching to transcripts instead of diplomas – diplomas are big, heavy, easy to fake, and of no real value besides ceremonial. Giving them as proof of educational attainment is like asking someone to hand over their wedding ring to prove they’re married. Make the switch to official transcripts (lightweight, hard to fake, and with much more complete information about the holder’s education – by golly, they could even use it to evaluate whether the person has sufficient background in English to teach it!)
    Although I totally understand the anger at the ridiculous assumption that all foreign teachers are drug users, it’s pretty common in most of our home nations to require basic drug screening before getting hired for certain jobs . . . like, say, teaching small children. And while I think the problem of drug use among foreign teachers has been grossly exaggerated, I don’t have any real beef with the requirement. But I haven’t heard any evidence that conversation instructors are a major vector for HIV being brought into Korea, mostly likely because . . .well, they’re not. That makes it just plain invasive.
    I’m happy to see Korea trying to find ways to ensure the quality of the people they’re bringing here to teach – I just wish they hadn’t gone about it the way they did. The method they chose did nothing but piss off a bunch of people and keep other people away. Not, I’d say, the intended consequence.

13. Pauline April 10th, 2008 at 9:51 pm 13

    To Jennifer and anyone else that cares to read this;
    as an agent I find the new visa laws have done nothing but cause a lot of people to become extremly frustrated and “give up” before even getting going. Many people now choose teaching english as a profession and travel the world doing this job. But you can forget about going into Sth korea from any country but your own. The only thing this part of the law does,will keep people teaching in korea,instead of moving on. It will not raise the salary as quickly as some of you hoped,this just isnt how things are done in Sth Korea,you may see a difference in about 5 years when it’s realised there’s not enough teachers coming in.

14. Pauline April 10th, 2008 at 10:15 pm 14

    I do wholeheartedly agree with the police checks. In many western countries you have to have police clereances to secure employment,why should it be any different in sth korea. If that keeps out 50% of the undesirables,then good.

15. Ilkyoung April 13th, 2008 at 3:28 am 15

    I’ve complained a lot on the U.S. visa and immigration system. It takes two to four weeks to process, costs a hundred US dollars, and I had to waste my time in the middle of long line to wait for my turn on the interview date.
    And I had to register fingerprints of my two thum and index fingers when I get into the U.S. territory. Now they changed the regulation to register all the ten fingerprints of my fingers. Fingerprint registration is usually done to criminals in most countries.
    I’m not talking about the standard procedure for working visa applicants or holders but any Koreans and Third World countries (for fingerprints, all the foreigners except green card holders) visiting the U.S.
    If I try to get a working visa(usually, H visas in the U.S. visa system), it’s a some-months-to-a-year and some-thousand-dollars cost project. (The majority of the budget is for legal services, as I know.)

    I haven’t paid attention to the Korean visa system simply because I am a Korean. It’s first time to get to know the details thanks to this episode. Oops, it’s getting closer to the American system. Does it mean that Korea is getting bigger and stronger enough?

    Basically, I totally agree with Mike’s and Jennifer’s points of view and I appreciate pointing that out. That stupid visa system would be of disbenifit to this country and people eventually.
    Moreover, there are other groups of foreigners (and non-officially but historically presumed gyopos) from China, CIS, and South East Asian countries who could not even get the visas for completely ridiculous, regulation-breakning, ignorant, racistic reasons.
    Shame on the bureaucracy, idiot government officials, and citizens supporting them.

    Mike,
    I know you are writing on OhMyNews. I wonder if you have an idea to write an article on this issue. If you would, I’m willing to help you do the job.

16. Jennifer April 13th, 2008 at 10:56 am 16

    I think it’s almost universal that since we don’t have to deal with our own home country’s immigration service, we often don’t know what people have to go through to visit or live there. Only as an outsider do we get to experience the . . .joy, shall we call it? of customs and immigration.
    Korea too likes to fingerprint, mandatory for anyone entering for a year or more.
    I wish for the sake of my friends and family here who go to the states that it were all easier for them when they visit America. I’m hoping the visa waver system will start and soon – one of the best ways of reducing the burden.

17. Ilkyoung April 13th, 2008 at 8:50 pm 17

    I didn’t mean to justify my own fault with somebody else’s similar behaving. “Hey, that guy is doing this, too. What’s wrong with you?”

    Right is right and wrong is wrong, in general.

    Jennifer, as you mentioned, it is hard for Koreans to recognize what’s wrong and what’s getting worse with our system dealing with foreigners. So, I do believe it is valueable and thanksful advice of your guys as our friends. And, I believe you guys also understand my descriptions on the U.S. Immigration policies in that point of view.

    Yes, the situation would be a bit less inconvenient for Koreans visiting the U.S. in short term. However, it won’t change the fundamental because a lot of Chinese or Malaysians still would be picked up arbiturary in the long waiting line of Immigration services at LAX or J.F.K. by the immigration detectives(?) and having hard times. Also, a lot of Vietnamies would be treated improperly by the Korean Immigration Officers.

    Anyway, this is what I love this site. Deep conversation and a valiety of spectrum.

18. jeanjean72 May 6th, 2008 at 9:58 am 18

    hi!

    i think most countries have similar requirements. I had done medical exam for hiv, tb, and vaccination for mmr, td, etc. i also had to swear not to have a baby within 3 months to have rubella shot which can cause deformation of baby.
    for the criminal record, since i had lived in Philippines more than 6month, us immigration required police record from Phil. and Korea.

    it’s incombursome to go through the u.s. visa process, but for now there is no way around it. hopefully things will get better.

19. Michael May 6th, 2008 at 10:46 am 19

    But I wonder — was yours for immigration, or just for a work visa?

20. Jennifer May 6th, 2008 at 11:40 am 20

    And to clarify, I don’t mind providing a copy of my shot record. I’m happy to prove that I’m up to date on shots that prevent potentially fatal and *easily* communicable diseases (which HIV/AIDS is NOT!). This is not a burdensome requirement.

21. Harry June 7th, 2008 at 3:50 pm 21

    Peter,

    What constitutes a genuine cultural experience in Korea? Going to a church for 10 hours where the congregation seems to think Jesus spoke English? Going to a red light district, getting drunk and naked and laid together with your coworkers on the company expense account? How about going to a jazz bar that openly discriminates against black people? Or having your female coworker called a “whore” for stopping and talking to you on the street?

    You state that it’s a fact that white male teachers “misbehave” more than any other segment of the population, well could you site your sources? What statistics do you have to back that up? And what constitutes misbehavior? Prostitution is illegal in Korea, and yet 4% of the GDP is spent on prostitutes. Is that not misbehavior?

    As far as male privilege goes, I’ve had several Korean women tell me they can’t stand gyopo men. They say that gyopo men are very arrogant about being bilingual and having dual-citizenship, and seem to think that Korean women should fall at their feet.

22. James October 27th, 2008 at 10:17 pm 22

    I don’t disagree with the need for a police check for an E2 visa as those on it are most likely to be working with kids, a requirement in place in the UK too (though like you say, the employer applies for it via a much easier route). What I do object to and what you don’t mention is the need for it to legalised. This cost me £27 (about $55) just to get a piece of paper and a stamp affixed to it saying it was genuine, despite that the certificate itself was on special watermarked paper that would have been very very difficult to fake. I don’t know if the certificates from the USA and Canada look similar to this but if they do then surely this extra process isn’t necessary. On top of this I talked to someone else from the UK who went to teach in Korea recently who had gone to the extra step of getting a solicitor to sign the certificate (costing more money) as they were told they needed this by the Korean embassy! I never did this step and got in just fine this time around.

    In the UK too the Korean embassy require photocopies of your criminal check certificate and degree AFTER the Korean immigration have checked and processed them and given you your visa code. As I didn’t know this I turned up at the embassy in London to be sent away and told I needed these pointless photocopies which would prove nothing! This seemed to imply that the embassy couldn’t trust the immigration in Korea!

    ——

    After my ordeal I swore to write to the Korean immigration in Korea once I got back protesting at this. Only now I feel that if I did it would have 0% impact, largely because it would be written in English.

    Do you think that anyone has told Korean immigration directly about the ridiculousness of their visa regulations and the harm it is doing?

    Would either of you consider writing a letter in Korean to them?

    I am well considering writing one and getting it translated to send to lots of people who might actually take notice. The next task will be figuring out who these people are.

23. Steven July 10th, 2009 at 1:48 pm 23

    Hey, at least they are trying.

    “Starting February 11, 2008, the Korean Consulate in Vancouver will accept a Self-Introductory
    CD to lessen the burden of face-to-face interviews for those who live outside B.C. Therefore,
    non-B.C. residents such as those who live in AB, SK, Yukon, NWT can either have a face to
    face interview at the Korean Consulate in Vancouver OR submit a Self-Introductory CD when
    applying for an E-2 Visa. After reviewing the visa applicant’s CD and application form, a Consul
    may contact the applicant for further questions if necessary. Please note that the Korean
    Consulate in Vancouver will NOT return this CD to the visa applicant. This option is NOT for
    those who live outside Canada.”

    http://can-vancouver.mofat.go.kr/eng/am/can-vancouver/visiting/visacategories/index.jsp#e2