Many times during my Korean tours I would see US soldiers completely disgracing themselves and the army with there actions. Mostly this would happen down in the “vill” after several drinks. And this has continued year after year for the past 60 years. I could see how this could turn the Korean population against US forces. I believe the US population would react the same way if not worse, if these same acts would be conducted by Korean soldiers in the US.

After the tragic accident that happened outside Camp Casey in 2002 I stood on the other side of a fence as a military police officer during numerous protests that followed. I had a lot of mixed emotions standing there watching a US flag being burned. Thinking of the 33,000 Americans that died to give these Koreans the right to protest. Besides these set backs I had a great experience and fell in love with the Korean culture.

I would love to return to Korea before my military time is over.
If anyone has any information on how I can locate ex-Katusas. Maybe they have records or something I search through or something of that nature. If anyone would like to message me hit me up at lappdance2003@yahoo.com.

1) I totally agree that Korean media are messed up. They carry too much propaganda. I didn’t yet see any Korean media with neutral information. None of them give me a reasonable explanation of situation. What a shame! I’ll give 20% credibility for the Korean media. (This is an opinion from my personal experience. I’m sorry for not describing it, it is too personal.)

2) I agree with Mike’s opinion that we didn’t run for any prevention for foreign individuals. And I want to translate this in the following manner.
I think there isn’t deep consideration for others in public. (and vice versa) For a simple example, you see so easily people jump in the line on a subway platform. It was hard to find these people during the world cup season.
Consideration for others can be translated into personal responsibility. If each person takes concrete, personal responsibility, not only this kind of irresponsible, immediate reaction won’t be take a place, but also we go further for taking care for the other people (in this case, unrelated foreign individuals.).

Voilà !

*Sorry that these thoughts don’t help to develop the discussion!

I read your responding to my comment in this morning before I start my work. Fortuantely, I had an appointment at Samsungdong and it gave me around two hours of free time in the subway on the way coming back and forth. So, I made an rather longer comments as following.

Before I start it, I would like to tell you that I am an moderately educated, normal and reasonable person and I know how to listen to somebody else and presume that you are at least as modest as I am. That’s my usual assumption when I debate on a certain issue. You may not agree to my point partially or even in total. Maybe in some parts, I went a little bit further. But nothing in personal, you know. I believe you understand that.

Let’s get started.

1. What drove the popular anger?
You analyzed that the school girls’ incident (accident? I don’t know what the differences are practically. Please explain it as the host of the Bomb English site. ) were driven by the mis-information and politics. I agree with it partially. However, I believe that the initial and fundamental thing that ignited the anger was the distrust to the USAK. (Here, the U.S. Government and R.O.K. Governments are to be blamed as well.)
There had been quite a significant and obvious crimes committed by the USAK soldiers in the past. But, as I remember, they hardly stood on the Korean court. I don’t know exactly what happened to them later. If they got warns from their commanders and had some had times or they stood on the court martial. Does the USAK release that kind of information to the Korean society? At least, in my (and to the majority of normal Koreans’) point of view, they just ran away to their bases and the justice were not realized to the victims’ point of view. (I know it is related to the SOFA and I agree that is a whole another issue.)

In my parents’ generation, the victims were usually bar girls, labors working in the USAK bases(camps), and small merchants that their businesses were basically based on the USAK. (Yes, including taxi drivers.) They(my parents generation) thought that a) those were victims’ destiny and they were sacrifice goat, b) they were afraid to get hard personally by standing against to the military dictatorships, or c) as long as they close their eyes, it has nothing to do with their everyday lives and happiness. Cowards, Right. However, in my generation, things have changed. The society get more liberal, the troublesome places has been expanded (from base nearby to, say, Hongdae), and in that particular case, the victims were innocent school girls.
The majority of Korean media including Chosun tried to burry the incident at the beginning. But some activist kept shouting and it spread to the general public all in a sudden. After that, we know the story.
Of course, the mis-information helped the situation getting ridiculous. I admit there must be somebody tried to control the circumstances for their own political purpose. (Chosun changed their word from that time.) But basically, people just worried that the case just got forgotten like before. We strongly felt that it should be changed from a certain point and it was that time.
I invented a concept called ‘inevitable chance’. (I don’t know if I translated it correct. In Korean, it is 필연적 우연(必然的 偶然).) For example, the First World War has been invoked by a Serbian assassin. But nobody say that the man was the root cause of the WWI. He was just an unpredicted seed-light and the ground was already covered by powders all around. The school girls’ case was like that. The displeasure has been integrated and when it was saturated, the case just pulled the trigger.

You mentioned that the different law systems as the key point.
In California, when you buy a new car and not received the number plate yet, you can just drive it out freely. But in a certain State nearby(Sorry, I forgot the name of the state.), it’s illegal. You would be arrested, had to spend a night if you really were fucked. And eventually be fined. You can’t claim to the police officer or judge of that State that ‘Hey, we do that in California. What’s wrong with you people, here?’ Moreover, it’s a matter of two young human beings. Don’t you think the families and friends of the two girls might think ‘someone had to pay’? The soldier, as an individual, may not be responsible in some sense. Probably he would feel sorry for the girls so much and bring the burden for the rest of his life. However, the USAK and the two Governments definitely are responsible. Because they are responsible for the circumstance that the driver to drive the vehicle at that time at that place without proper safety consideration. (Arguing whether it was a tank or an AVLB was quite pointless and sidewalks were not a root cause. If it was predictable that the driver cannot secure his foresight as Mark said, then the USAK should double and triple check to prevent that kind of tragedy.)

2. 9/11. Historically sudden attack and proud response?
First of all, why the tragedy happened? Who gave the plausible excuse to the wicked Osama Bin Laden for the unbelievable crime? And what happened to the civilians in Afghanistan and Iraq? Who is the ‘someone’ that should pay? I don’t see the so called ‘Iraqi War’ as a war but genocide by some greedy people and their direct and indirect supporters. And did Americans get paid back?

I respect the sound social value and matured reactions to some ridiculous happenings as you described. It’s obvious that’s not something Koreans do not have enough yet.
But I don’t agree with you that the 9/11 is just a terrorists’ attack and the Americans did the legal defense. We should point out why the hell it happened and who (or what circumstances) started it from the beginning. It’s a huge and pretty much complicated issue and I don’t believe I should go further here for that.

3. My perspective
The Koreans harassed foreigners (including you, Mike) felt that they (as individuals) were shouting to the U.S. Government and Military(I categorized them as systems in my previous comment.) based on that background I explained above. But they were premature cowards, obviously. They probably felt that they were the weak one and did not recognized the foreigners in front of them as a person just like them but a representatives of the U.S. Powers. And the foreigners (again, including you, Mike) felt so strange and scared, feeling as an unprotected minority in this society.

However, the Americans reactions to the 9/11 were personal while the root anger of the terrorists (on the other side of the coin, they were patriots in their society, you might not agree with that though. We need another long, long debate on this issue.) were to the systems.

Besides that, I do feel sorry for what you and other foreigners experienced during that time. I mean it.

Media reports have also suggested that the soldiers involved in the accident were initially cavalier and unconcerned. One television station reported the soldiers were involved in a fistfight with KATUSA soldiers who were offended by the attitude of the two USFK soldiers.

Maybe this was the rumor my wife was talking about being spread on KATUSA internet cafes at that time? It must have been quite a popular rumor to make it on television….

it seems to me that he might not understand korean culture and also, i`m kinda wondering if he`s ever tried to understand, accept korean & their culture as a sort of different culture existing in the world.

Are you saying I don’t understand Korea’s special situation and culture because I’m not special?

While there are some similarities in 9/11 and the middle school girls’ incident in terms of people being angry, I actually think they were quite different.

First, I think a lot of the popular anger at the middle school girls’ incident was based on misinformation and politics. While the accident was tragic, I think the Korean population was really misled by the media, or at least, the media didn’t do its job properly.

I say this because much of the initial anger was based on simply erroneous information that was passed on by a media based on sensationalism and previously-existing anti-American sentiment: that the US and the military didn’t apologize, that they didn’t pay proper compensation, or that there was evidence that the girls were killed on purpose, that the soldiers in question were laughing after the incident, etc.

In fact, the key ponts in the issue were a) the difference between American and Korean law in terms of traffic accidents, where in Korea you can be criminally liable even if there is no negligence, whereas in America, barring criminal acts such as drunk driving or vehicular homicide, there is no such liability. That point is very, very different and really the crux of the case, which was made more obvious by some aspects of the SOFA agreement, which while there seemed to be parts worth updating, was really a separate issue.

In the American case, the anger was not based so much on minsinformation and pre-existing attitudes, but the fact that America was actually attacked on a scale unprecedented in our history. On that day, thousands of people died, war was on the horizon, and “someone had to pay” in the minds of many Americans. This led to some hate crimes across the country, perhaps several major ones and hundreds of minor ones, but as an American, the response actually made me proud.

Here was an incident, which is many countries across the world, could have caused massive violence and revenge attacks on a minority population. And a few occurred,unfortuntely, on that day. And from a look at American history, there have been “race riots” against blacks, Chinese, and other populations at various times.

But in a post-WWII, post-Vietnam, post-Civil Rights America, that’s what didn’t happen. Although certain individuals committed such crimes after the attacks, there was also an immediate reaction on the part of many citizens who knew such things could happen to prevent them, and also to make sure America had a reasonable response.

In city squares, college campuses, meeting halls, parks, and any other public place across the nation, you saw huuuuuge peace rallies and candleight vigils organized calling for peace, asking people to not blame individuls for their anger, calling for the government to not simply send missiles to random countries in retaliation.

Most of such rallies were like this. I prticipated in many. In many of them, representatives of the Muslim community were asked to speak, and you also saw such people on TV. At that time, much awareness was raised in America, actually, about what the Muslim community was like, and even what a Muslim WAS (many people, for instance, confused the head wraps of Sikh men with Muslims, although they are totally different religions).

I still remember on the Berkeley campus, a candlelight vigil being organized on the night of the attacks calling for us to watch out for and make sure our Muslim students and friends were alright. Yes, I know it was difficult for many that day and in the time to come, because of a fear of the random crazies, but at the same time, the vast majority of Americans were of the opinion that attacking individual Muslims was NOT OK.

In short, what began in America was a debate and struggle. Yes, Muslims underwent close scrutiny and are still treated unfairly in security, and other aspects of society. But you have to remember that people were actually scared, were afraid of real attacks. Yet, as a society we struggled with the issue of how to make sure we protected our society without treating people unfairly. Many people have different ideas of how to do this, and now, the question of civil liberties is a central one in the US, and even in Hollywood movies, you have very critical portrayals of discrimination against Muslims, or criticisms of how this is being handled, say in the War in Iraq.

However, what disappointed me as someone in Korea in 2002 was the fact that there were no Koreans calling for people to be reasonable. Hate crimes against Americans and other foreigners went completley unreported. There was no popular call for people to be reasonable, even though much of the “facts” of the case were simply not true and were available to the media and anyone who wanted to look. Even the idea that Koreans COULD or DO constantly harass individual Americans, or that there were hate crimes committed against individuals on a similar scale as against some Muslims in the US went unreported, unknown. In fact, when I mentioned this fact to Korean friends, most just said, “You’re just defending the US!”

What I learned as someone with a different point of view about the incident, as someone who was being harassed, as someone who felt the story was being completely distorted, was, “Shut up.” Seriously. That’s what it was like to say at the time, “Wait a minute. Some parts of this story are beign exaggerated.”

However, as someone on the ground during 9/11, many everyday Americans fought against he hatred, were fighting with right-wing newspapers and radio talk show hosts, were organizing peace rallies, were INSTANTLY thinking about, “Oh, boy. I hope no one starts targeting Muslims.” On that day, that was the first thing I and many of my friends thought about.

Simply put, as an American/foreigner in Korea at that time, I didn’t get the sense that any Koreans were standing up for me, even personally. And certainly not in the media. From the Chosun Ilbo to OhMyNews, the attitude was scarily monolithic.

So, in that moment, as an American, I was somewhat proud during 9/11, since I think it showed the complexity and strength of our democracy in action, I saw a lot of good, responsible citizens working hard to make sure our reaction as a society was reasonable.

However, I didn’t see that in Korea. I literally didn’t feel safe on the streets, and I didn’t feel like there were any Koreans watching out for me, or even understood how bad the situation was for many foreigners.

As I often say, if a 9/11-level incident happened in Korea in 2002, or more likely, a “Cho Seung-hui” incident with a crazy American shooting and killing dozens of Koreans happened, what do you think would happen in Korea?

I couldn’t even imagine. I’m serious when I say that I wouldn’t leave my house for a week until people calmed down.

On the other hand, look at the American response to Cho. Newspapers were very careful when dealing with him, and his Koreanness was not considered an issue. The American government refused the Korean government’s apology because they considered it an individual matter that had nothinig to do with Korea, which is true. I heard there were one or two idiots who harrassed some Asian student, but the vast majority of people found that totally unacceptable.

The difference was that most Americans didn’t consider Cho as having anything to do with Koreans or Korea. He was just “a crazy kid.” What was telling was the reaction of many Korean student in America, who weren’t so familiar with the culture, and simply expected something big to happen to them.

Which really disappointed me, since it showed how Koreans might think if the situation were reversed in Korea.

In any case, I know perhaps many Koreans thought the 2002 response was unreasonable, or had dissenting points of view. The problem was, I didn’t HEAR or SEE any of them at the time.

And that’s the key difference - the HUGE difference – for me between 2002 Korea and American 9/11.

Sorry for the length, but I felt I had to make that point.

I was led to this site by Michael’s column in OhMyNews which is one of my favorite news portal. I put all the four episodes into my Palm and listened to it on my way to work. ‘Wow, these guys are great!’

Did I flatter enough?

I really liked to write a big, big article on the issues covered in the conversation. Especially on the ‘root cause issue’. But I decided not to take up the thread since Jong made a simple and clean point above. So, probably, there would be another chance I could take part in.

I see a very sharp similarity between the school girls’ accident here and September 11 in the States in terms of the reaction of the local general public.

In Korea, individual Americans were easy victims of a big mass of sudden patriotic Koreans asking for appologies for what they really had nothing to do with personally. And some were harassed like Mike experienced personally.

In the States, the public rage focussed to the muslim (and/or) Arabic communities. A lot of Arabic-Americans and Arabic visitors had to worry about their security. Some green card holders were expelled from the foundations of their entire lives.

Mike, I believe we cannot get the answer if we maintain the ‘why-the-hell-all-Koreans-do-this-to-me?’ or ‘Americans-hate-muslims’ approach.

1) Generally, anything “positive” about the US gets subsumed by the overall tendency in Korea to see the US as “bad” or the military as doer of only “bad” things. Good news doesn’t seem to travel very far, while a little bit of bad news seems to go a long way.

2) And during that time (2002-2003), one has to remember that the anti-Americanism got so strong that there was very little room for hearing the other side of the story. I still remember one female news anchor was fired for suggesting that there was perhaps another side to the story, and in my personal life, at least on 3 major occasions, Korean friends who asked, “What do you think of the issue?” got so angry when I presented facts that were counter to what they were hearing in the news that two of them – normally very calm and collected people – were red in the face and yelling quite loudly, at which point I decided to just not broach the topic with Koreans until the storm had passed. Thinking about that time, it’s no wonder no one heard anything different.